E- This status ...message has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the hard working men and women in the armed services that put their keesters on the line EVERY DAY so the soulless trash that I am referring to can sit at home and 'collect
L I don't agree about this --I just don't. There are a lot of reasons why people end up on "the dole". #1 in my book is that the public educational system sucks. People need skills and opportunity. If they are stuck in a place that has a cycl...e of poverty, no jobs, and self defeating psycho-social patterns--THEY WILL NOT THRIVE. It's far too easy to say "get a job" or "pick yourself up by the boot straps" but in inner cities, reservations, rural poor communities you have GENERATIONS that have been beaten down, angry, discouraged...un-educated limited resources ----what the fuck do you really think those people are going to do to change everything? It's not enough to say "bee a good little worker bee" It takes intervervention, resources and another generation to make those lasting changes
ME: I disagree. I think that your life is what you make of it. We still live in a country where hard work, and bettering yourself, is rewarded...even in the inner cities. Change needs to come from within...not from elsewhere. It simply does not work otherwise. It provides no motivation, no boost to self esteem, and is a self-defeating idealism. Our history is full of immigrants who traveled to this country with nothing...but yet worked their butts off (we're talking 80-100 hours per week or more) and in two or three generations had built a very nice life for their descendants...through hard work, not through government charity. Yes, the US imported the "Poor Laws" from the English during the colonial years, but there were two very important distinctions. These laws separated individuals into two groups, one for the elderly and those too disabled to work (and the qualifications were strict here) and those who were "unemployed". Those who were unemployed were sent to work in public service. Only starting with Woodrow Wilson's presidency was this tactic changed. Simply accepting that you have a certain lot in life doesn't cut it for me. There are PLENTY of people who have made it out of the "depths into which they were cast". For examples off the top of my head, Jean Michel Basquiat, Jim Carrey, Jewel, John Paul DeJoria (a billionaire now), Benjamin Franklin, Dr. Phil, Don Imus...and those are just the ones I can think of as I write...and I know that there are many, many others. In short, you ALWAYS have choices in life...you can choose to accept state and federal aid while you are picking yourself up off the ground by your bootstraps...or you can make it a way of life. I think the point that M is trying to make is that she is frustrated by those who make it a way of life, and especially those who make it a way of life, and then FLAUNT that fact to those of us who are working hard, but lose nearly 1/2 to 3/4 of our annual pay to the government, who turn around to dole it out to those who are making government charity their career.
M L- When people have skills and are granted an opportunity to use said skills and then REFUSE the opportunity in order to remain at home, collecting a paycheck, is FAR DIFFERENT than accepting the government offerings quietly, with your ...head bowed, and walking away 'embarrassed' or ashamed to accept government help while you get back on your feet. If you use the system for what it is designed, THAT IS FINE. As long as it is a TEMPORARY SOLUTION.
The people who FLAUNT that they can make a lifestyle of staying at home, doing nothing of social consequence, other than sitting on a porch drinking a nice wholesome glass of milk and watching the army of Sumdood create havoc around them, and say "What's da MAN gonna do about it? Who's gonna help me get out of this situation?!, When is my check going to come?!" while they breed more generations of angry, helpless, drug and alcohol addicted soul-suckers are not going to change anything. THESE are the people that anger me. The opportunities in inner cities exist (The Y, Community Centers, Multicultural Centers, volunteer opportunities, Jobs (though they may not be the ones that make 20/hr, 4-H, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Future Farmers of America, Future Business Leaders of America, etc) . The world is run by the people who SHOW UP. Yes, the school systems suck. But they suck even more now that the government is imposing the "no child left behind" act on all the schools, which encourages social promotion, and why would any child look to better themselves in the classroom when they are only going to be held back by the slower students? I have said since I was in middle school that heterogenous grouping in the classroom was a bad idea, and that the smart kids should be held to a different standard so if someone in the slower class wants to work harder, their efforts will pay off. Everyone has opportunities and skills to offer, and people make choices EVERY DAY that affect their lives, both positive and negative. If you are going to collect any form of government assistance, there should be a TIME LIMIT to how long you can receive it, and you should have to pass a drug and alcohol screening in order to continue receiving benefits.
L I think you are both naive-ly American---and that's OK ;-) I just don't agree ;-) And that's OK! I can tell you, I lived in Washington DC and Philadelphia as a kid when my mum was a Commander in the Navy---both cities have huge populations ...of disadvantaged poor both races, and these people are born of many generations of unhealthy cycles. These sociologic conundrums are really not about whether you are a young whipper snapper that goes to school everyday and plays hoops at the boys and girls club. it's about kids whose parents are addicted to drugs, who disappear and leave kids on their own for a week, no food, sell food stamps for drugs, kids who are offeered a gig selling crack so they have money for clothes, shoes, food and they have power, they have to be given respect if they have a glock. These schools get the worst of everything. Good kids, that start out really wanting to rise above get drowned everyday in the serious serious shit these environments cultivate. There friends get shot in the play ground in front of them. They watch people OD, get beat to a pulp, pimp and prositiutes. Kids told to go stand in the street while there female family members turn tricks thru the night. It is really really hard for people to overcome these psychological "conditionings" In the words of Grand Master Flash" : "it's a jungle out there sometimes I wonder how I keep from going under"------America has a very ugly under belly. and Marian I'm sorry i have to bitch slap you on the future fucking farmers and multicultural center why don't you mjust join girl scouts---I think we know how paralized and un-empowered you felt as a kid despite some very bad goings on ---...sorry to slap you with this but--you deserve it toots. People have to fight really hard to overcome shit, and most times they don't make it. They can't they are in too deep and there are lots of very deep shackles that keep them where they are. You should think about that before you throw stones at others and suggest they pop round to the local community center. There are people who want a free ride in this world---and there are a lot of people who can't see the forest for the trees because it's all they know
M Yup, thanks. But had I NOT been in 4-H, I would not have had A LOT of the experiences, education, and LIFE LESSONS that I got that helped pull me from where I came from. These experiences made sure there were healthy people in my life and... helped me to overcome some of the shit I dealt with and made me a better person. Many of my formed opinions came from the experiences I had with 4-H, so Please, take your personal attacks elsewhere. This is not about you, this is about being angry that people I KNOW and are fully capable of working, are flaunting the fact that they are getting a free ride. My point is there are HEALTHY and POSITIVE alternatives, where people really do give a shit. And I have seen it work. For instance, in the Somali culture, women typically sit at home and breed babies while the men, may or may not, work. There's a LADY at the hospital who works as a CNA and an interpreter for the Somali population. You want to talk about shackles and breaking social norms? There's a great example. She used the system for what it was for! She got out of the situation she was in, and is now a productive member of society. I am FINE with that. And that was in the Dirty Lew, where there are *zomg* multicultural centers, jobs, and *gasp* volunteer opportunities. There are more examples like this that are emerging and have been featured in the news. It's certainly not the highest paying job in the hospital, but hey, she works hard! AND THAT'S FINE. It is possible, and I refuse to accept it when ...people say "Bilking The Government for money is a way of life". And if you're up to 1/8th native american, you get to go to college FOR FREE. All you have to do is SHOW UP to sign the paperwork, and I'm FINE with that. It's about showing people where the opportunities are, it's about providing them the opportunities to improve their self-esteem, and get them out of the situation they are in. Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, show a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime. And if you read what is going on in the DC school system, there is a principal who has gone in and cleaned up MANY of the schools that had the problems of inner cities (drugs, guns, violence, etc).
As I have repeated over and over, TEMPORARY assistance is FINE. Permanent LIFESTYLE is NOT.
L I've bit my tongue with you for a long time M--and D as well. You're range of life experiences are different, back grounds different, education different. To each their own. I've stepped up and bitch slapped you because I think you can think bigger than this narrow white rural american facist crap. Some day you may see the value in why I've challenged you and your position.
So wow. You readers now have the whole conversation. So, to compare, my and M's point of view to the definition of Fascism, as defined by Wiktionary:
A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. Originally only applied (usually capitalized) to Benito Mussolini's Italy.
Now, I'm no history major (although definitely a history buff), but I know for a fact that my political and social views are nowhere near fascism. I welcome opinionated debates...until the attacks get personal, and to me, "bitch slapping" me or anyone else for that matter is not what I would consider an opinionated debate. That is a personal attack, especially when you consider someone making the assumption that because I am from rural America, I can't possibly know anything about the "ugly underbelly of America" or that I do not know what hopelessness is.
The fact of the matter is, I do know both of those items, and I understand the position our country is in. The fact of the matter is, I know much more than I ever let on (don't believe me, ask my wife sometime!). Judging me without knowing me is something that really galls me.
And for the record, I am not a "right winger" either. Why don't you learn a few things about me before making that judgment? I sit in the middle of the spectrum, like many other Americans, holding up the tattered remnants of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, trying to watch both right and left wingers, wondering where the next attack is coming from. I guess if that makes me a Fascist then so be it.
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